hey all thought you may like hearing some rambled thoughts

I broke my newest spoon a couple weeks ago, the original crack in the nose originally started as a tear in the top lam (probably from hitting a rock or the bottom or something) and just kept growing eventually breaking the foam and forming a crack into the pure lam deck riding it over the the last couple of months to destructive test it and see how more and more flex feels. The last day I got obliterated by a lip and it totally broke through the right rail even further back but still up a bit. Kept riding it pulled into another shutdown at rivermouth and didnt make it got smashed. came up and the left rail now was broken and some of the lam too right in front of where the embedded stringer ended. It was (and still is) now destroyed to the point where it was/is unridable.

one thing i notice is in riding toobs to the end sometimes the lip imploding floods the deck and causes it to start diving (think submarine diving from surface/bodysurfing absorption style) and puts a lot of stress on the front half of the board (as its a pretty abrupt deceleration sometimes), where my lam scedule was weakest.

Another thing is (dale s already knew this) reinforcements, i.e. stringers/carbon must be done in a tapered/smoothed/rounded/subtle as possible manner to minimize stress risers or abrupt changes in shape or strength.

Lastly Mr. solomonson also stressed the usage of 10-12 lb pour foam. I called Hastings Plastics in Santa Monica, CA (thanks dale) and the guy said they stock 11 lb, so I'm gonna use that for the next one.

Also I was pretty reckless in wave selection, but i didnt like the shape anyway.

So my thoughts for my next one, you may think of the ideas whatever you wish of course...

11 lb pour foam

no stringers

no center core (balsa spine) stiffener

constant rocker - I really think this is where spoons can evolve - the dead flat is fast and makes sense but with all that entry rocker its like a start stop instead of smooth control. I'm thinking 3.5" nose, 1.25" tail with a deep single concave (as deep and flowing as needed to mimic the original preload for flex concept of dead flat rear 2/3rds) in therear 2/3rds to compensate. yes the radical hull flowing to flat gives it some rail line rocker but its so forward and that hull as we know is so inefficient in not perfect surf. Applying modern (seems some of the most evolved/modern boards from Lis to Merrick share striking concepts) rockers and bottom contours, while still being aware of the 'preload' neccesitated by the variability flex provides is unexplored and may open the range of surf up a bit, and the places on a wave you can go, without getting too far away from the original concepts of freedom and feel while surfing.

more strength/stiffness in the nose flowing to more even (yet still subtle) variable nose to tail rocker out tail, still focusing more on the thru pure lam twist.

otherwise i was happy with my lam schedule and the twist it provided, but definitely need to work on foil/flex nose to tail taper/flex of rails. The fins work great too and i am happy with the drive/release/glide balance of the setup, still will try single someday though.

end rant until i learn some more on the next one...

edit - also shorter! 4-10 x 21 or something i like the subtle crescent/dolphin tail exit too, makes sense, rest of outline hybridization of lis fish and round nose velo... slight hulled nose to sing conc like i stated, rails very soft (but relatively modern) flowing to hard edge etc etc

also because carbons properties are so much stiffer/different than glass just 2 full deck layers, no strips, all else will be s-glass. And maybe the whole thing will be s-glass depending upon carbons cost/availability haha

Run,
As usual, great detail.

I can't believe you rode it till it finished breaking lol. These boards are so much work. You have the true test pilot mentality. Who is it again that posts on ksusa with the motto, "Knowledge gained is in direct proportion to equipment destroyed."

I liked your observation about the deck flooding as you get snuffed and the sudden-stop pressure that puts on the front end. It just shows how important it is to get the tuning fork approach right. We both left too much flex up front. Carbon around the nose rails back to the knees tapered is an answer. I wouldn't discount it too fast. I wonder about using carbon full-length and width on the deck where you want flex, tho, because it's such brittle stuff.

I was surprised you're not going with peripheral stringers again but Dale's comments on smooth transition make sense.

I don't know if 11 lb foam instead of 8 is going to make a difference because the foam is so thin anyway.

Good to see a single fin still on your horizon.

More tail rocker -- it kind of goes against the theory but who knows.

4'10" -- I can see Flexadmin hoisting a Corona in your honor already.

On the s-glass, can you see any difference between 4 oz s cloth and 4 oz e? Side by side it looks identical to me and costs twice as much. When I asked the woman at the supplier about it, she didn't really answer the question. She just said the s has 20-30% more strength--that's what she was instructed to say.

hi manowar,

yeah i still like the embedded stringer but havent thought of a way to have them in in the whole rail length instead of just back 3 feet.

i guess we'll see the difference 11 lb makes.

constant rocker can still be balanced/tuned by careful bottom contour depth flow and placement (in this case a single concave) to imitate a very flat central planing surface through the exit while still allowing a bit of rail line rocker to work as a catalyst and natural 'normal' shape for where you care about the rails - fitting in a hollow face or guiding the arc when hard on a rail through a turn; all the while the single concave center not only reduces centerline nose to tail rocker, but channels flow and provides lift. done right they provide a great, and possibly the most balanced I have felt, balance of speed and control in a wide variety of conditions. right now my two favorite standup boards, a merrick 5 and a daniel thompson 5-10 modern twin keel fish function off of this concept. the latter still focusing on glide with the fin setup and slight hulled entry.

depending on how and how far in you soften the rails its really just an evolved less abrupt (and less radical hull mentality but not abandoning it entirely) approach of gg's edge triplane concepts.

I have no opinion on s other than I recall it simply has superior properties to e on that chart terry posted a long time back.

when are you going to make a multi fin version? (Yes yes the 'rails are fins', well surf it finless and see how it holds! 3 yrs ago the first triplane I ever made I surfed it different disciplines finless, as a single, and with rail fins to see how much i could make it hold.)

the 'single fin only' mentality is close minded, though i love surfing them lots of the time. Do dolphins and fish only have one fin? hehe

take care

Hey, I'm an old dog. Old dogs are close-minded but let's be charitable and call it focused.

Hey run,
glad you've been getting in the water(literally paddling a spoon).
Rivermouth - Rincon?
are you going to repair? How did it feel? The best surfing I ever did on my Greek spoon was with the rail broken clean thru. You haven't really broken one until it breaks/tears in 2 and you're left with a 3' spoon after the tail sinks. and then come back 2 weeks later and find the tail washed up on the sand!

Can you post a pic. We need more pics of injured/broken boards.

One of the things that Greenough said once was that his spoons were designed like a teardrop with the tail cut off. He was referring to the general outline. Think of the strength/weight/structure/stiffness that way also. Constantly tapering from a bullet-proof nose to the fully flexing tail. A tapered 2-prong tuning-fork with a more flexible membrane between.

I talked to my spoon buddy Tim today and as he said "we never even thought about the strength in the nose because they are/were so beefy". Getting crushed out of a tube or pearling the nose to pull out of a wave are standard maneuvers Build boards with that in mind.


I still see something like a carbon-fibre tapered windsurfing mast in/as the rails/frame. Actually I have a carbon-fibre boom right here.

and all carbon mast


So we get a double-tapered U-shaped hollow "frame" and build board around that.



Did you catch that? Reflex Response
sounds like "TWANG" to me!

run - 4-10 x 21...sounds closer to me.

although Five Feet to Fit! is the conclusion I came up with

Push the limits...what limits? There are none on the path less travelled.

run and MOW,

Look closely at the board on the right - looks like it was pushed too far.
also all his boards are twin-fins

ha no worries mow

yeah flexadmin at the end the thing was trying to buck me off it was flexing so much at different places. started feeling really moving to wave face like a empty mat. extremely difficult to control/surf. i wouldnt say better, but you could feel the flex and response more than ever before.

as for the carbon tube structure I've thought of that too but the logistics become extremely challenging of keeping the shape u want, I guess not difficult but you'd really have to think out your steps and there would be even more than making a spoon the normal way ha. for right now i'm stoked on just trying to find a shape I'm happy with the old way.

i see the good dr strange was thinking out a new board for himself here and over on sways and having lots of great ideas too, eps?

maybe real light eps 2 lb foam horseshoe rail blank made continuous from one piece, mummified with carbon tape and epox, then tacked into mold with 5 min epoxy for bonding to ...i dunno, it would be pretty difficult, and you'd then have the 2 components- the torque rail and the skin, how would you connect them to make it flow as if it was one? probably tear real easy at the base fillet of where the rail tube meets hullskin.

you'd almost want the edges of the hull to stay continuous and come up and wrap into the rail shape along the perimeter...continuous flow. just too much hassle for my mind right now

at least now i can make a carbon monofin someday out of my broken board for bodysurfing